December 10, 2007

The Liberal Identity is Defined in Relation to George Bush

I'd like to make an obvious point about what constitutes "torture" in the minds of unserious liberals seeking to gain partisan political advantage on a national security issue even in a time of war. The point is simply this: in the mind of today's leading liberals, "torture" is defined as the harshest interrogation technique approved by the Bush administration. Many draw the torture line at waterboarding, this despite the fact that our own special forces soldiers are deliberately exposed to that very practice as part of their training (which, in my mind, proves that it isn't torture even if it is officially labeled as such). If the Bush administration had not approved of the waterboarding of high-level al Qaeda detainees in the wake of 9/11, they'd have approved of some other, somewhat less harsh interrogation technique. In that case, liberals would be running around having an apoplectic fit over that method of interrogation. As I said, to them, torture equals the harshest interrogation technique approved by George Bush.

As with every issue having to do with national security, liberals adopt a relativistic perspective. That is, they define themselves relative to George Bush. That's partly because the liberal experience requires a villain. Once the villain is identified, a liberal defines himself as not that. I know because I grew up liberal and only entered the post-liberal phase of my life when I awakened to the evidence-free, holier-than-thou attitude of today's liberal icons (including John Kerry, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, John Murtha, etc.). I once shared that attitude, but I'm quite sure that I will never be that way again (even if I will always hold onto some views that are uniquely identified with the Democratic party).

With that in mind, this new story is not really news at all:

Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002

In Meetings, Spy Panels' Chiefs Did Not Protest, Officials Say

In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.
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With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).

It isn't waterboarding that bothers Democrats who imagine themselves to be especially concerned with "human rights." Instead, it is the fact that George Bush happened to favor that particular harsh interrogation technique. At the time that Democrats were fully briefed on the subject, they did not immediately appreciate the fact that they could exploit this issue to damage the domestic and international standing of their own president in a time of war. The technique itself is merely a harsh method of interrogation, not something that jumps out as a self-defining method of torture. But once they realized that they could shamelessly and hypocritically exploit the issue, they jumped at the opportunity and hystericaly declared George Bush's waterboarding technique to be a self-evident example of "torture."

It was the same way with respect to Saddam's WMDs. The intelligence community was sure that Saddam had them. As such, George Bush and the large majority of Democrats were also sure that he had them. If you have any doubt about that, go watch the video that Glenn Reynolds posted yesterday, which consists of leading Democrats expressing their views about WMDs in Iraq. The Democrats obviously believed what George Bush believed, but when it eventually became clear that the intelligence was wrong, those same Democrats realized that they were just handed a glorious opportunity to savage their own president in a time of war by falsely accusing him of being a liar. So that's what they did.

Democrats know perfectly well that it was intelligence analysts who were convinced of Saddam's WMDs. They know because an excruciatingly detailed bipartisan investigation by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence concluded as much in 2004:

The Intelligence Community (IC) suffered from a collective presumption that Iraq had an active and growing weapons of mass destruction (WMD) program. This "group think" dynamic led Intelligence Community analysts, collectors and managers to both interpret ambiguous evidence as conclusively indicative of a WMD program as well as ignore or minimize evidence that Iraq did not have active and expanding weapons of mass destruction programs. This presumption was so strong that formalized IC mechanisms established to challenge assumptions and group think were not utilized.
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The roots of the IC's bias stretch back to Iraq's pre-1991 efforts to build WMD and its efforts to hide those programs. The fact that Iraq had repeatedly lied about its pre-1991 WMD programs, its continued deceptive behavior, and its failure to fully cooperate with UN inspectors left the IC with a predisposition to believe the Iraqis were continuing to lie about their WMD efforts. This was compounded by the fact that Iraq's pre-1991 progress on its nuclear weapons program had surprised the 1C. The role this knowledge played in analysts' thinking is evident in the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate's (NIE) introduction which said, "revelations after the Gulf War starkly demonstrate the extensive efforts undertaken by Iraq to deny information. The revelations also underscore the extent to which limited information fostered underestimates by the Intelligence Community of Saddam's capabilities at that time." This bias was likely further reinforced by the IC's failure to detect the September 11th terrorist plot and the criticism that the Community had not done all it could to "connect the dots."
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The Committee did not find any evidence that Administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities.
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The Committee found that none of the analysts or other people interviewed by the Committee said that they were pressured to change their conclusions related to Iraq's links to terrorism. After 9/11, however, analysts were under tremendous pressure to make correct assessments, to avoid missing a credible threat, and to avoid an intelligence failure on the scale of 9/11. As a result, the Intelligence Community's assessments were bold and assertive in pointing out potential terrorist links.

This unbelievably thorough report was unanimously approved by a committee that included John Rockefeller, Chuck Hagel, Diane Feinstein, Richard Durbin, and John Edwards. Obviously, the intelligence community was the source of the error about Saddam's WMDs, and no one from the administration pressured them to reach their faulty conclusions (conclusions that were also in effect during the Clinton administration). Ask yourself: why don't you already know all of this? You don't know it because we have a media that hysterically devotes saturation coverage to stories like the abuses at Abu Ghraib while devoting minimal attention to the historically more important information I quoted above. If the saturation coverage had been the other way around, the world would not believe that George Bush misled this nation into war. Can't have that.

And speaking of John Edwards, remember what he had to say back before the Democrats morphed into the shameless con artists they are today:

I mean, we have three different countries that, while they all present serious problems for the United States -- they're dictatorships, they're involved in the development and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction -- you know, the most imminent, clear and present threat to our country is not the same from those three countries. I think Iraq is the most serious and imminent threat to our country.
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And they do, in my judgment, present different threats. And I think Iraq and Saddam Hussein present the most serious and most imminent threat.

Was he, like that villain George Bush, misleading this nation by declaring Iraq to be an imminent threat? Of course not. He was expressing the consensus view of the intelligence community. But maybe he was misled by the Bush administration. Could that be? No:

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about-Since you did support the resolution and you did support that ultimate solution to go into combat and to take over that government and occupy that country. Do you think that you, as a United States Senator, got the straight story from the Bush administration on this war? On the need for the war? Did you get the straight story?

EDWARDS: Well, the first thing I should say is I take responsibility for my vote. Period. And I did what I did based upon a belief, Chris, that Saddam Hussein’s potential for getting nuclear capability was what created the threat. That was always the focus of my concern. Still is the focus of my concern.

So did I get misled? No. I didn’t get misled.

Whether it is torture or Saddam's WMDs, the truth is of secondary importance. All that matters to today's liberal icons is savaging their own president in a time of war even if a little truth needs to be tossed aside along the way. And because of the media we have, they can get away with it. I was once utterly amazed by this incredible phenomenon, but now I realize that it is simply par for the course. That's why this new discovery that leading Democrats were perfectly OK with waterboarding is not (and will not become) a major story. Neither the Democrats nor the media really care. Don't get me wrong: I applaud these reporters for bringing this already obvious news to the brief attention of the world. That's better than nothing. But now that the information has been dutifully reported, it will not be revisited (and will therefore have no impact). That's because there is some other story out there that places the Bush administration in a negative light, such as our supposedly failing economy. A story like that will obviously require saturation coverage.

Perhaps Republicans will be equally pathetic if a Democrat is returned to White House, but I suspect not. The reason is that, so far as I can tell, conservatives do not define themselves in relation to liberals. Still, I don't rule it out. The Republicans did not behave in impressive fashion when they impeached Bill Clinton even though the technical legal case to do so was there. It wasn't impressive, but they didn't just toss reality to the winds (with a willing assist from the mainstream media) when they did that. We'll see how they behave if Hillary Clinton wins the presidency. My hope is that Bush Derangement Syndrome is not immediately replaced by Clinton Derangement Syndrome, but I worry that it will be.

18 comments:

Anonymous said...

As with every issue having to do with national security, liberals adopt a relativistic perspective. That is, they define themselves relative to George Bush. That's partly because the liberal experience requires a villain. Once the villain is identified, a liberal defines himself as not that. I know because I grew up liberal and only entered the post-liberal phase of my life when I awakened to the evidence-free, holier-than-thou attitude of today's liberal icons (including John Kerry, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, John Murtha

typical projection of conservative attitudes onto those they perceive incorrectly as their 'enemies'. so far from being 'icons', the first three democrats you name are among the least popular with progressives at the moment

Engram said...

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that John Kerry is unpopular becasue he accused the president of misleading this nation into war? I don't think so, but perhaps I am wrong.

And Hillary Clinton is popular, yet here is what she has done during her campaign:

At virtually all her stops in this early nominating state, she ran into questions about her Iraq vote. She says Mr. Bush misled Congress and she now wants a cap on the number of troops, as well as beginning a "phased redeployment" of troops from Iraq.

Later, she basically accused General Petraeus of lying when he told the truth about the now-undeniable effectiveness of the troop surge.

Why do Democrats go around falsely accusing their political opponents of lying?

Anonymous said...

Even if they're not "icons," Pelosi, Reid and Kerry are three of the most defining liberals in the Democratic party. Or is it not enough to be the last presidential candidate any more?

Pez said...

Anonymous-

That's because progressives are far left, not liberals. And the three are unpopular precisely because progressives have unrealistic goals regarding national politics and apparently not a lot of knowledge of how deals get done in Congress. Pelosi has been there for years- she understands the limits she's up against- essentially numerical limits.

It will be interesting how well progressives can continue to sell their dire vision of the world despite continued good news in Iraq and with the economy. It will also be interesting to see who they support in the democratic primary (and later in the general). When your views are extreme relative to others in a society you won't ever get everything you want. Pelosi is the best ally you all have at the moment.

Anonymous said...

Even if they're not "icons," Pelosi, Reid and Kerry are three of the most defining liberals in the Democratic party. Or is it not enough to be the last presidential candidate any more?

an other anonymous. i should start signing myself as mouse again.

i disagree that these guys 'define' liberalism or the democratic party

Why do Democrats go around falsely accusing their political opponents of lying?

dept. of unintentional humor.

Brian J. Dunn said...

Why pick on Edwards? Clearly, the campaign of lying by the administration over Iraq was so thorough that Edwards didn't even realize he was misled when Chris Matthews asked him about his views.

BobW said...

Clearly, the campaign of lying by the administration over Iraq was so thorough that Edwards didn't even realize he was misled when Chris Matthews asked him about his views.

Brian, the adverb "Clearly" fails to paper over the fact that you have not offered a single whit of evidence for your assertion. You would be much more honest with yourself if you substituted "My unsupported speculation is that". . .

What? said...

"The technique itself is merely a harsh method of interrogation, not something that jumps out as a self-defining method of torture."

I think those who see waterboarding as torture do so by and large because it does jump out at them as a "self-defining method of torture." Their argument is no more sophisticated than that waterboarding is torture because waterboarding is obviously torture or "I know a method of torture when I see it."

I think it is an indisputable fact that waterboarding has been used and can be used as a technique of torture. I also think it also is an indisputable fact that waterboarding can be done in a manner that in and of itself is not torture. I think, as does Engram, the fact that we use waterboarding as a training technique constitutes this not just an assertion, but as a fact.

Now some might say the difference maker between torture or not is that of the coercion. After all torture for our discussion is defined by Merriam Webster thusly:

"2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure"

I would submit, however, it is not "ain" and coercion that are the linchpin's which determine What? is torture vs. What? is not. A mother may use corporal punishment on a child to coerce them to stay away from a hot stove and that definitely should not be considered torture, thus the linchpin's are not "pain" and coercion.

I believe the heart of the matter is instead "pain" and "sadistic pleasure." For waterboarding to be torture it must be used in a manner that is inherently excessively cruel. I do not think that the use of the waterboard is inherently excessively cruel, therefore it is the manner in which and for What? it is used that determine whether it is a torture technique or not.

I submit that for training and for the purpose of gaining valuable intelligence on terrorist activities that waterboarding can be used in a way that is not inherently sadistic and thus is not torture.

Anonymous said...

somehow, the words of sen. maccain, somebody who would know more about torture, and whether or not it is an effective means of obtaining information, go unheeded here

Freedomnow said...

Ahhhh but McCain is an unapologizing Conservative.

Unlike a liberal like Pelosi who didnt object to waterboarding until she could use it as an political advantage over President Bush.

To set the subject straight, I agree with McCain on the subject of waterboarding.

William Jockusch said...

I think the entire terms of the waterboarding/torture debate are wrong. The debate centers around whether or not waterboarding is "torture". Is it or isn't it. That's the wrong question!

The right question is whether the benefits exceed the costs. Both are enormous.

BENEFITS: Information gained can identify terrorists, allowing their capture or killing. Information gained can lead to intelligence penetration of terrorist cells. Information gained can prevent terror attacks.

COSTS: Harsh treatment (such as waterboarding) of one captured terrorist may impair long-term efforts to build rapport with other captured terrorists. Harsh treatment of captured terrorists may erode support for the war on terror. Harsh treatment of captured terrorists may render evidence inadmissable, thereby impairing efforts to convict terrorists in the criminal justice system.

Chad said...

McCain may be a conservative, he is also wrong on this issue.

Not in that torture is in and of itself wrong - it is, although I don't think that waterboarding is torture - but that torture is ineffective in extracting information or gaining compliance. It can be. Look at the coerced confession obtained by the Vietnamese from American pilots during the Vietnam War. Many were obtained through torture. The Nazis effectively used torture to extract information on resistance cells and so on.

So yes McCain is correct that torture is wrong but incorrect on whether it can be effective and that is why I tend to discount his words on the matter.

reoconnot said...

The two situations are not comparable.

Not only did Clinton disgrace the Office of the President he committed perjury and attempted to obstruct justice. He should have been removed from office.

Bush stands accussed,falsely, of being excesssively zealous in the defence of his country. His only sin is that his communication skills are mediocre at a time when the office requires the communication skills of a Churchill.

What? said...

I don't know What? Mccain is saying now, but in his book Faith of our Fathers he indicates several times that torture was successful in breaking a prisoner, himself included.

COSTS: Harsh treatment (such as waterboarding) of one captured terrorist may impair long-term efforts to build rapport with other captured terrorists.
I doubt it. The will to resist or cooperate is centered in the unique character of an individual. The highly commited terrorist is not going to cave easily, while the less commited terrorist will cooperate more easily. How others are treated or perceived to be treated is a non factor comparitively.

Harsh treatment of captured terrorists may erode support for the war on terror.
Doubt it. Once again this goes to individual and in this case group disposition. If you are really commited to the war on terror than it's not gonna matter. If you are not really commited this becomes merely one of many excuses to be soft on the matter.

Harsh treatment of captured terrorists may render evidence inadmissable, thereby impairing efforts to convict terrorists in the criminal justice system.I suppose this cost may have some merit. Personally I could care less whether or not a terrorist is brought to justice through the criminal justice system. What? I care about is getting useful intel on and about terrorists that makes fighting terrorists easier.

Freedomnow said...

You guys are right that waterboarding saves lives, but there is a bigger picture that in the end negates the short-term benefits.

After WWII it was our moral superiority over our enemies that won over their population base in Germany and Japan.

In the Al-Anbar province it was our moral superiority that won over the Sunni Arab population.

This is a powerful weapon that should be wielded accordingly.

reoconnot said...

"You guys are right that waterboarding saves lives, but there is a bigger picture that in the end negates the short-term benefits"

It is immoral (and stupid) not to use a questioninig technique which causes no lasting harm if it is is necessary to use the technique to save the lives of innocent human beings. All this talk about 2 or 3 al Qaeda leaders being waterboarded when they are unconstrained by any rules of conduct whatsoever. What bloody nonsense.

Engram's post brilliantly describes what's unacceptable to the American left (which includes the vast majority of the MSM) as whatever technique is supported by Bush.


I would suggest that if you want to convince the world of America's moral superiority that you mobilize a campaign to end the practice of destroying each year- in the wombs of their mothers' yet -the lives of one million, totally innocent and completely vulnerable, human beings.

Freedomnow said...

I dont see what abortion has to do with this argument. Perhaps Al Qaeda also feels that abortion is immoral and would ban it if they could implement Sharia Law... But that wouldn’t make them moral.

(Reoconnot, I’m not saying that you are anything like Al Qaeda. I have read your comments for a long time and I realize that you are someone with a great deal of common sense.)

This issue is a lot more than just morality. It’s about strategy.

A long time ago I got in a vicious argument with a blogger over the rules of engagement that our troops operate under. My point was similar to this one.

I argued that our leadership implemented a wise policy to minimize the casualties of innocent Iraqis. Unfortunately, such a policy could lead to some additional casualties among our troops. Yet I seriously doubt that we could have won over so much Sunni Arab support without this policy. Not only does it save lives of the people that we are protecting, but when Iraqi Security Forces go on patrol they can see the high moral character of our troops for themselves… The ISF are in no shape or form restricted by similar rules of engagement. Their manual contains three words, Spray and Pray.

If you read the COIN Manual co-written by Petraeus…

1) “Military actions conducted without proper assessment of political effects at best result in reduced effectiveness and at worst are counterproductive. Resolving most insurgencies requires a political solution, and it is imperative that the actions of the counterinsurgent do not make achieving that political solution more difficult.”

2) “Efforts to build a legitimate government though illegitimate action - including unjustified or excessive use of force, unlawful detention, torture, or punishment without trial - are self-defeating, even against insurgents who conceal themselves amid noncombatants and flout the law.”

3) “In a COIN environment, it is vital for commanders to adopt appropriate and measured levels of force that accomplish the mission without causing unnecessary loss of life or suffering. Normally, the counterinsurgent can minimize potential loss of life by employing escalation of force procedures, especially at checkpoints and roadblocks, and during convoy operations.”

4) “The More You Protect Your Force, The Less Secure You Are. Ultimate success in COIN is gained by protecting the populace, not the COIN force. If military forces stay locked up in compounds, they lose touch with the people, appear to be running scared, and cede the initiative to the insurgents. Patrols must be conducted, risk must be shared, and contact maintained. This ensures access to the intelligence needed to drive operations and reinforces the connections with the people that establish real legitimacy.”

5) “Any use of force produces many effects, not all of which can be foreseen. The more force applied, the greater the chance of collateral damage and mistakes. It also increases the opportunity for insurgent propaganda to portray lethal military activities as brutal. The precise and discriminate use of force also strengthens the rule of law that needs to be established.”

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24fd.pdf

You might agree with me on this point. The reason I included this info was to get you thinking about winning both the battle and the war.

It is important to win battles, but look at Vietnam. We won every battle, militarily defeated our enemy and still lost the war. Our troops are the most competent in the world. They cannot be beaten. The weakest link in the chain is our political situation. We can’t afford to lose politically. Since our fellow Americans seek to undermine their own country in the vain pursuit of power, we have to implement COIN strategies in the United States as well as in Iraq…

Freedomnow said...

(Oh, I forgot to mention that overall our strict rules of engagement has saved American lives, even though it could have resulted in the deaths of some. Just look at the casualty statistics for the last couple of months.)