May 05, 2008

Craving America's Defeat in Iraq

Back in November of 2006 -- back when al Qaeda had successfully plunged Iraq into sectarian chaos and the Iraqi people needed us the most -- James Carroll (a columnist for the Boston Globe) was excited about the possibility of America's apparent defeat. In fact, he thought that America's defeat at the hands of the terrorist organization that attacked us on 9/11 would be downright educational:

What it will take to end war

By James Carroll | November 6, 2006
...
It is one thing to feel uneasy about your nation's war, or even to move to a position of outright opposition. It is another to face the harsh fact that the only way out of the war is to accept defeat.
...
For all of the anguish felt over the loss of American lives, can we acknowledge that there is something proper in the way that hubristic American power has been thwarted? Can we admit that the loss of honor will not come with how the war ends, because we lost our honor when we began it? This time, can we accept defeat?

Here again in my chart showing civilian casualties in Iraq, and you should consider the state of Iraq at the end of 2006 (back when Carroll -- like Barack Obama -- thought it would be just an excellent idea to accept defeat):


Has the dramatic reduction in civilian casualties changed how Carroll thinks about the war in Iraq? No. His new column today suggests that, despite all that has happened, America's defeat is still the primary goal that should be pursued:

The new immorality of Iraq war

By James Carroll
May 5, 2008

INSANITY is defined as repeating one mistaken action again and again, each time expecting a better result that never comes. Prime example: the United States in Iraq.
...
Let's call this repeated insanity the mistake of "supermilitarism," choosing war over diplomacy, and expecting order to follow, instead of chaos. The mistake was made at the beginning, in the middle, and is being repeated now, in what should be the end. The mistake is so deeply rooted in American structures of imagination, economy, and government that it isn't even perceived as a mistake by those in power. And it threatens the future as much as it burdens the past.
...
The healing of Iraq would be far more readily achieved by an American acknowledgment of failure, and by the engagement of other nations that such an acknowledgment would immediately invite. But insanely holding on in Iraq until Washington can claim something like "victory" means that this globally oriented geo-political ambition - America's standing in the world - is being bought at the price of Iraqi blood.

This from a man who thought that U.S. troops should be withdrawn when Iraqi blood was being spilled at three times the rate it is today. Thus, he has it exactly backwards. He craves America's defeat, so much so that he is willing to purchase that defeat with the blood of the Iraqi people. At least that's how seems to me given his preference for withdrawal at a time when virtually everyone agreed that our abrupt departure would precipitate genocidal chaos on a horrific scale.

I wondered who James Carroll might support for president of the United States. Gee, that's a tough one. John McCain, perhaps? Probably not. Hillary Clinton? She's a Democrat, but her pro-defeat bona fides are somewhat questionable despite the rhetoric she has been forced to adopt during the primary season. No, this man who can hardly wait to see America defeated in Iraq knows a kindred spirit when he sees one. Here is how he covered Ted Kennedy's endorsement of Barack Obama earlier this year:

JFK’s Torch for Obama

by James Carroll

To rekindle the flame of the American University speech would be to restore a preference of negotiation over confrontation, to build self-criticism into policy making, and to affirm the utter realism of idealistic hope. Ted Kennedy sees the possibility in Barack Obama of the realization of his brother’s greatest vision.

That vision, conceived negatively, boils down to this: If humans do not change the way we resolve international conflicts, the planet is ultimately doomed to nuclear devastation. The abolition of all nuclear weapons, starting with our own, must be at the top of the new president’s agenda.

Conceived positively, the American University vision means that humans are poised, by necessity, for a great leap into a new and better world. Yes, we can.

Two years ago, Carroll asked "This time, can we accept defeat?" He knows perfectly well that if we elect Barack Obama, the answer is "Yes, we can."

No, we can't.

31 comments:

Anonymous said...

Yet, engram, you WILL accept defeat. It sucks for you.

DJ said...

...well, annon, perhaps you should ignore the incoherent ramblings of Engram and use your erudite musings to enhance the noteworthy blog of our fine neighbor, Professor Kurgman, PhD., PhD., PhD. (btw, no, my computer keys aren't stuck.)

The Good Professor

His two recommendations for ending the quagmire of Iraq are simple, so simple that I wonder how all us right brainers (sic) could have missed them.

1. Bring the morons home.

2. Invite Iran to join NATO to resist international Zionist aggression.

I know you're probably skeptical, but rest assured, the professor is highly qualified. After all, here's his very own description. "People say they are fortunate to know me, as my gifted insights are relentlessly instructive. Of course, as an accomplished polymath, I can speak authoritatively about anything...but my biggest goal in life is to apply my expansive mind to make The Earth a more compassionate place. I have three Ph.D's!"

HAHAHAHAHAHA! The left is truly a circus, it never ceases to delight! :)

DJ said...

...sorry, I left out the best part of his blog entry. It's not enough that he has just solved the Iraq quagmire. His fertile intellect has already raced ahead to the next terrible dilemna. I feel but a mere ape beside his shimmering energy.

"...I will now need to wrestle with the moral dilemma of how to preserve the Sun People of Islam and Africa (including people in the West with Islamic DNA markers) while furthering the cause of human extinction to preserve the environment."

ss said...

dj, thanks for the Professor Kurgman link. I hadn't seen that site before. Brilliant stuff - ranks up there with thepeoplescube. Won't get much work done today...just read his entry "9/11 never happened!" - and his endorsement of Hugo Chavez for President:
"My students have told me, however, that most ignorant Amerikkkans (an oxymoron, if there ever was) do not understand that they can support Hugo, and instead feel limited to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. When I see such people, I scream at them, "What have you against Chavez, you swine?", and they are left dumbstruck, unable to answer.

Amerikkkans = Racists.

Nevertheless, of the remaining two candidates, I support Hillary Clinton."

thanks again dj - I suspect that first post by anonymous was in fact written by Professor Peter Kurgman PhD. PhD. PhD.

ewo said...

You can see how far along the "long march through the institutions" has progressed: Dohrn + Ayres + Wright + Obama (+ Krugman + Carroll) has an unpleasant "logic" to it.

By my lights, the ultimate "false consciousness" is the desire for self-destruction--and the intellectual elite has got a bad case of it.

DJ said...

...fascinating, ewo, I'd never heard of that phrase or of Rudy Dutschke! For that matter, ss, I'd never heard of thepeoplescube either. Great stuff! :)

drake said...

Documentary on PBS tonight on Bush 41.

It's a 2-part series. The first one was last night. Tonight picks up on the First Persian Gulf War.

During the interviews, James Baker was quoted:

Everybody used to come up and ask me why didn't we take Saddam out. Why we didn't go into Bagdad.... No one asks me that any more...

If you don't see the documentary on PBS, it'll be available online

Freedomnow said...

Yes Engram, when it comes to defeat the Obama Cult says... si se puede!!!!!!!!!

Love and Kisses from the Hate America First Crowd.

And oh Drake, Bush 41 didnt want to take out Saddam because he preferred 100s of thousands dead under sanctions and 10s of thousands dead cleaning up a job that he would have had the world's backing for. Remember the UN authorized the Persian Gulf War. The idiot took the easy way out just like Carroll advocates.

If Bush 41 took care of the mess Saddam made when he had the chance, we would of never of had to go through this much Leftwing/Islamist propaganda.

100s of thousands of victims buried in mass graves during the sanction years testifies to that.

mike tomaso said...

"like Barack Obama -- thought it would be just an excellent idea to accept defeat"
Please provide me the quote and policy plan of which Obama said I want to be defeated in Iraq because it is an 'excellent idea'. My saying is if you have to exaggerate an argument, its already wrong.

Freedomnow said...

Mike,

This is a good example of exaggerating an argument...

In April 2007 just as the Surge was making progress Harry Reid said, "this war is lost".

The Democratic Party has linked its fortune to undermining our mission in Iraq. Anything bad that happens in Iraq benefits the Democrats and anything good that happens benefits the Republicans.

These Copperheads advocate a substantial or complete withdrawal from Iraq. If the war is going as badly as they say this will create a catastrophic power vacuum. After all, the U.S. military is the strongest military power in Iraq at the moment. What is their plan for counterbalancing this fact?

EntropyIncreases said...

I am not entirely sure that Sen Obama is really speaking what he at heart believes, over posturing and seeking to win the nomination. Ms Powers, one of his previous foreign policy experts, gave an interview to a foreign paper a few months ago, after Obama had made his phased withdrawal plans crystal clear, which described his plan as a best case scenario and that he would have to take all the information he learned once he became president into consideration.

I think he will change his mind if he becomes POTUS. I guess we will have a pretty good chance of finding out.

Anonymous said...

I think he will change his mind if he becomes POTUS. I guess we will have a pretty good chance of finding out.

Prince Precious had damn well better change his mind about Iraq and the GWOT if he becomes POTUS.
Hell, if the "Obamster" doesn't, and we suffer another major terrorist attack on home soil, he won't have to worry about running for a second term. Nope, on the contrary, he'll have to figure out how to get through his first, and only, term without being forcibly removed by impeachment/conviction or even by a coup.

"Pretty words and faces count for s*** in irradiated environments."

Anonymous said...

The Oath our military men and women take upon enlisting includes in it the words "..I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.."


Why is we never seem to enforce the latter part of that? The enemy within is even more dangerous than without, yet a culture of treason has not only been tolerated but encouraged to flourish.


There is a large fifth column in America and the West in general that enjoys complete immunity to eat away at the spine like a parasite and one day it will sever the spinal cord.

Anonymous said...

"like Barack Obama -- thought it would be just an excellent idea to accept defeat"

This is a dumb statement which makes you sound like a wing nut again. I have no idea how such a balanced person overall falls into polarization the second he starts talking about Obama. There is no doubt, the anti Obama mania is the part of this blog I can't stand, whereas the rest of it is pretty good. You forget ***repeatedly** that somewhere between 50 and 70% of Americans want the war over within a year or two and the # is probably higher for Democrats and is in the plurality among Republicans. But somehow you think running against the war is going to cost him votes (I'm not talking about your vote mind you). Why? The only votes it is going to cost him are people who were not ever going to vote for him anyway.

Basically it would cost him about as many votes as running against abortions.

Anonymous said...

I meant to say pro choice * oops*

Anonymous said...

Sir,

We are now well in to the fifth year of this war so we can make some reasonable judgements that we could not have made prior to the invasion. If you go back to what was being said by the leading lights of the pro war intelligencia, you'll see very few of their predictions have proved accurate. We are not any closer to establishing a functioning Democracy in the heart of the Middle East with a Pro Western stance and at peace with it's neighbors. We have a frail central government that's nominally Democratic but power does not reside in the hands of that government, rather it still resides in Washington, D.C. That will continue to be the case as long as the country is being held together by the sweat and blood of America Soldiers. Iran has increased their influence since the time of our invasion, the price of oil has tripled and the coilition of countries that still remain engaged in Iraq has dwindled to a tiny few. We can pretend this is all going to work out fabously but we would only be fooling ourselves. How it ends and how long that will be are unknowable but acknowledging these realities does not constitute "craving America's defeat." The only real question left to answer is this: What's next? After 43 leaves office, what will the next President do? Our options are few but we must figure out a way forward that does not include the divides of the past. We can't move in the right direction until we stop the "warmonger/traitor" back and forth.

Dan said...

"You forget ***repeatedly** that somewhere between 50 and 70% of Americans want the war over within a year or two and the # is probably higher for Democrats and is in the plurality among Republicans."

As an independent conservative, I can assure you that I would **LOVE** this war to be over TOMORROW, never mind in a year or two.

But there's a catch. I see the way out as a withdrawal AFTER the government there can take over with a reasonable chance of lasting. NOT before. Therein lies the difference between moonbats and wingnuts, I guess.

Anonymous said...

Use these techniques to win debates in 1-2 sentences with anti-Iraq War loons who cling to the same old one-liners. These are great for parties or the office, where you don't have time to go into a detailed discussion.

Orion said...

If Obama is elected he won't have any choice except to bug out. A good politician knows that if he wants to stay in politics "you goes home with them wut brung you to the dance!" and the antiwar left are definitely Obama's dance partner. They're not a small, vocal minority of his base that he can safely ignore after election, either. Whatever his true feelings on the matter he'll order the troops out post haste and hope the resulting mess falls on the next administration.

Anonymous said...

Victory in Iraq was predicted for 2008 here, way back in May of 2006. It appears that 2008 has turned out the be the year of victory.

ray_g said...

"Everybody used to come up and ask me why didn't we take Saddam out. Why we didn't go into Bagdad?"

"...cleaning up a job that he would have had the world's backing for. Remember the UN authorized the Persian Gulf War."

You had best brush up on your history. The authorization was to get Saddam's forces out of Kuwait, not to take out Saddam.
To build the coalition the United States had promised our allies that we would stop after doing that, and had stated publically many times that our only intent in Desert Storm was to kick Saddam's forces out of Kuwait and prevent them from moving on Saudi Arabia. As I vividly recall, the anti-war protestors (in the U.S. and abroad) of the time claimed that Bush 41 was lying, that we were going to march on Bagdad. Now, I thought at the time, and think now, that we should have gotten Saddam then, but I'm a little tired of people with 20-20 hindsight critising Bush 41 for doing exactly what he said he would do, and keeping his agreements with our coalition allies. And furthermore, for those with short memories, at the time there was virtually no political support in the U.S. or abroad for taking Saddam out then. Yes we should have, and maybe we should have let Patton take on the Russians too. It is revisionist history to say now that there would have been much support for such actions.

Eric said...

Honestly, if elected I don't think that Obama will be all that quick to skidaddle. Recent polls suggest that a majority of Americans think we will win in Iraq. Most certainly think the war was a mistake, and most want us to start leaving as soon as possible, but most also oppose are withdrawl being the drop-everything-and-run type. Unlike the last incarnation as Christ, the current Messiah is very pragmatic and image conscious, and I really don't think he wants Iraq to fail on his watch if it still looks like we can win when he takes over. In fact, he would want to take credit, like all non-messianic politicians do when they inherit a good outcome. The next month of running to the center will tell us for sure, but I think the logic in Carroll columns may become even more tortured--no longer Abu Ghraib but Inquisition level of torture--if Obama takes the presidency.

I'm still voting McCain though, if for no other reason but to keep Carroll from making a complete break with reality.

Don Meaker said...

It is true that the Persian gulf war was authorized to get Iraq out if Kuwaitt.

That war ended with an armistice. When Iraq violated the terms of that armistice, the war can go back on.

17 UN resolutions later, the US built a new coalition, this time to take out Saddam. Mission accomplished.

I want to also point out that the 1993 WTC bombing used explosive laced with cyanide in a terrorist attempt to murder US citizens with hydrogen cyanide, a poison gas. A weapon of mass destruction. The source of the cyanide? Iraq. The passports of the terrorists? Kuwait, stolen by Iraqi Intelligence during their occupation of Kuwait.

al fin said...

Obama is not suicidal. He will take the same path as the 2006 Democratic Congress took. Lie, cheat, screw around to get elected--then stay in the bounds of the do-able. They f*cked over their supporters (Moveon.org and Soros etc) but they had no choice.

Obama has no choice. He'll say what he has to say to get in the big house, then he'll do what he has to do.

Anonymous said...

"You forget ***repeatedly** that somewhere between 50 and 70% of Americans want the war over within a year or two and the # is probably higher for Democrats and is in the plurality among Republicans."
After 5 straight years of doom, death, and destruction reporting by the media about the war, when they aren't ignoring it (like now), is it surprising at all that this what everyone wants?
If the same people responding to those polls knew the truth about Iraq, that we are, in fact, winning, and winning big, do you think they just might change the response to the poll?
Besides this, America doesn't run off of poll numbers, Bill Clinton's 8 years notwithstanding...

Tom W. said...

"We are not any closer to establishing a functioning Democracy in the heart of the Middle East with a Pro Western stance and at peace with it's neighbors."

Actually, the reality of Iraq is the diametric opposite of this statement.

Iraq today is closer than ever to being a functioning, pluralistic democracy. The central government has finally decided that the rule of law trumps sectarian loyalties, which is leading to the reconciliation that our Congress demanded.

Iraq is also standing up to Iran in a way that is encouraging the rest of the Arab Gulf states to follow suit.

The Sunni states thought Iraq would be an Iranian client. Now that Iraq is proving itself unwilling to be Iran's dog, the Arabs are uniting to help us against Iran.

The mullahs' days are numbered.

Warrior-Poet said...

"And furthermore, for those with short memories, at the time there was virtually no political support in the U.S. or abroad for taking Saddam out then. Yes we should have, and maybe we should have let Patton take on the Russians too. It is revisionist history to say now that there would have been much support for such actions."

Except from the Iraqis themselves, who, at Bush 41's urging, did indeed rise up against Saddam and took control of much of the country, until Saddam rallied his loyalist forces and the half dozen or so helicopters he had left and slaughtered them en masse while the coalition observed from Kuwait and did nothing.

Warrior-Poet said...

"Iraq today is closer than ever to being a functioning, pluralistic democracy. The central government has finally decided that the rule of law trumps sectarian loyalties, which is leading to the reconciliation that our Congress demanded.

Iraq is also standing up to Iran in a way that is encouraging the rest of the Arab Gulf states to follow suit.
"

Utterly delusional nonsense. I sometimes find myself wondering if the regulars here live in some alternate dimension and communicate with everyone else's only through this blog.

Anonymous said...

If and when the big O gets to the Oval Office, there will be a sudden change in the fortunes in Iraq. Previously undisclosed victories will be widely disseminated and recognition of the budding democracy there will be front page news. And, it will all be because of O's wise stewardship.

We've seen it before, when the sickly economy under Bush I suddenly boomed as soon as BJ walked into the Oval Office.

M. Simon said...

Well sure 50% to 70% of Americans want the war over in a year or two.

What if our enemies decide not to quit. Then what?

What happens if Al Q or some government that supports them controls Iraq? What if there is a major war in the Arab oil patch? As a previous poster opined - impeachment and conviction. Or a Republican landslide.

Obama is lying to some one about his intentions. I thought the Democrats were against Presidential lying. I'm always amused by the fact that there are some people hoping that a candidate is lying and others who are afraid he is.

jtb-in-texas said...

What ever made you think Dhimmis were against lying? "al taqiyyah" is part of the Muslim religion that they're itching to adopt...

I am not as eloquent nor erudite as I think I am; but I can see the writing on the wall.

When our government stopped enforcing 18 USC Chapter 115 against Americans and refuses to enforce SS Fraud laws against Hispanics, I knew it was--more than any hurricane, earthquake, or plaque--a judgement against us from God.

We're going to get the government we deserve...