December 18, 2008

How to be an Anti-Torture Hysteric

If even Dick Cheney approves of Obama's foreign policy team, you know the president-elect has done an unexpectedly good job on that front:

Cheney lauds Obama's national security team

WASHINGTON - Vice President Dick Cheney is calling President-elect Barack Obama's national security lineup "a pretty good team."

In a wide-ranging interview with ABC News with 35 days left in the Bush administration, Cheney also again vehemently defended going to war in Iraq, said waterboarding of suspects in the war on terror was justified in some instances and opposed closing the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

"I must say, I think it's a pretty good team," Cheney said of Obama's national security choices, in a segment of the interview broadcast Tuesday on "Good Morning America."

I'm with Cheney on this, and I don't know a single ardent fan of Barack Obama (or a single detractor, for that matter) who predicted that we'd end up with a national security team like the one we now have. And Obama keeps going out of his way to prove that meant it when he said he'd rise above partisanship:

Calif. evangelist to give inaugural invocation

Obama's choice of Rick Warren is an olive branch to religious conservatives

Barack Obama has selected the Rev. Rick Warren, the evangelical pastor and author of “The Purpose Driven Life,” to deliver the invocation at his inauguration, a role that positions Mr. Warren to succeed Billy Graham as the nation’s pre-eminent minister and reflects the generational changes in the evangelical Christian movement.

Some of the left are having a conniption fit over this, but some of the left are prone to that kind of reaction.

Barack Obama will soon pick his intelligence team, but we've already learned one important fact about our president-elect on this front as well. The fact we have learned is that he is not the left wing hysteric that he appeared to be on the campaign trail:

Obama faces delicate task with CIA

Caught between desire to break from Bush, alienating the agency

WASHINGTON - For two years on the presidential campaign trail, Barack Obama rallied crowds with strongly worded critiques of the Bush administration’s most controversial counterterrorism programs, from hiding terrorism suspects in secret Central Intelligence Agency jails to questioning them with methods he denounced as torture.

Now Mr. Obama must take charge of the C.I.A., in what is already proving to be one of the more treacherous patches of his transition to the White House.

Last week, John O. Brennan , a C.I.A. veteran who was widely seen as Mr. Obama’s likeliest choice to head the intelligence agency, withdrew his name from consideration after liberal critics attacked his alleged role in the agency’s detention and interrogation program.

Brennan withdrew his name, but the fact that Obama wanted to have that man lead the CIA pretty much proves that Obama fully appreciates the fact that there is a rationale debate to be had about interrogation techniques. This sets him apart from left wing hysterics who emotionally frame the issue as a debate between pro-torture vs. anti-torture advocates. The actual debate is over the harshness of interrogation techniques that should be allowed under particular circumstances. How harsh a technique should be allowed for a low-level al Qaeda operative who probably knows nothing of any importance? How harsh a technique should be allowed for a high-level al Qaeda detainee who is thought to have time-sensitive information about an impending mass-casualty attack on innocent and unsuspecting men, women and children? Adults debate that issue, and most agree that torture is not an option. Where they disagree is on the question of what constitutes torture and how harsh the interrogation technique should be (short of torture).

Popular liberal bloggers approach the issue in an entirely different way. They consider it to be self-evident that harsh interrogation techniques amount to torture (so the issue need not be further analyzed) and that such techniques are ineffective anyway. That being the case, anyone who supports the use of, say, waterboarding for a high-level al Qaeda detainee must be either wretchedly evil or colossally stupid (or, most likely, both). This level of thinking is what you often see in low-budget movies in which the bad guy is evil through and through, whereas the good guy is as pure as the driven snow.

Like the use of the death penalty for murder, what makes the issue difficult is that moral imperatives collide. If you are mainly concerned with self-aggrandizement, you'll instead frame the issue as one of good vs. evil (with you as a champion of the good, of course). People are free to do that, but, to me, it is a sign that they are fixated in an adolescent stage of development.

With regard to the death penalty, it seems immoral for the state to take the life of someone who has committed a grisly murder of a young child, but it also seems immoral not to take that life if it might deter many similar crimes in the future. To avoid that debate, many liberals simply assert that the death penalty cannot possibly deter murder. The problem is that much evidence suggests otherwise. The same attempted end-run is seen in the debate over torture. Anti-torture fanatics instinctively realize that their position is not the obviously moral one if the use of harsh interrogation stands any chance of saving many innocent lives. To avoid dealing with that possibility like an adult, they hysterically classify all harsh interrogation techniques as "torture" and then simply declare that "torture doesn't work" (and then they quote someone like John McCain as saying so, as if that settles the debate). Well, if all harsh interrogation techniques amount to torture, and if torture doesn't work anyway, then those who favor the use of waterboarding for high-level al Qaeda detainees must be wretchedly evil or colossally stupid (or both). That's how you argue on the far left.

How do anti-torture hysterics on the far left avoid answering the one key question, which is this: setting aside the issue of torture, what is the harshest interrogation technique that should be allowed for high-level al Qaeda detainees thought to have information about an impending mass-casualty attack on civilians? No anti-torture champion ever addresses that question, and the way they avoid it to say something like "I'm for what's in the Army Field Manual." But that's not a moral or ethical position. It's just a way to dodge the hard debate so that you can set yourself up as a champion of virtue (and simultaneously characterize your opponents as pathologically evil). Well, not everyone on the left is this way, I am glad to say:

But even some senior Democratic lawmakers who are vehement critics of the Bush administration’s interrogation policies seemed reluctant in recent interviews to commit the new administration to following the Army Field Manual in all cases.
...
But in an interview on Tuesday, Mrs. Feinstein indicated that extreme cases might call for flexibility. “I think that you have to use the noncoercive standard to the greatest extent possible,” she said, raising the possibility that an imminent terrorist threat might require special measures.

You don't say. And what's the principle that should followed in deciding how harsh those "special measures" should be? That's the question, and no anti-torture hysteric on the left will ever come close to touching it. The moment they do, it ruins their game (i.e., they would be doing the hard work of drawing the line instead of taking the easy way out by accusing their intellectual opponents of being morally bankrupt). So far, it seem to me that, in light of the fact that he wanted John Brennan to head the CIA, Barack Obama is not going to play this game. Time will tell.

12 comments:

Anonymous said...

Engram you dont have the slightest clue as to what your talking about. Japanese were prosecuted for using water boarding as a war crime. The legal precedent has already been set. The argument is only rational if you dont ahve any background knowledge on water boarding and when and where it was used. So yes, to people like you, it is more subtle.

Engram said...

Great. Now tell me, what's the harshest interrogation technique that you'd tolerate if we captured a high-level al Qaeda detainee thought to have time sensitive information about an impending terrorist attack on an elementary school somewhere in Kansas? In your mind, the Japanese outlawed waterboarding (which we use on our own special forces during training), so that's off limits. What methods can be used, in your view? There is no time to make a friend out of this detainee, and hundreds of elementary school children may die a horrible death if we don't get the information out of him. What's your plan? That's all I'm asking.

Anonymous said...

Engram,

I don't think your example is actually what is going on. What you are talking about is an imminent emergency, and it is very likely most agents in recent times (since the signing of the 3rd geneva convention) would even shoot the person in that situation. I don't think we have a lot of qualms about this because it is an imminent act of war and you are in a combat situation.

Rather, the problem is with people who are actually POWs or POW-like status who are actually being classified as this vague non-legal term "unlawful combatants" that is foreigners or even citizen civilians attacking not at the behest of the state they are in, and then being tortured probably primarily for the location of infrastructure and associates, without due process (and the info they have is so stale by that time that is all they could have). I mean if an attack is imminent, there is no chance those poeple are at Gitmo anyway (since it takes a long time to end up there).

There is no unlawful combatant status and that has been clear from the International Trime Cribunal (1991) findings to prosecute Yugoslav war crimes. The serbs made this kind of argument many times, were laughed at many times, and the findings were: "Every person in enemy hands must have some status under international law: he is either a prisoner of war and, as such, covered by the Third Convention, a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention, or again, a member of the medical personnel of the armed forces who is covered by the First Convention. There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law. We feel that this is a satisfactory solution – not only satisfying to the mind, but also, and above all, satisfactory from the humanitarian point of view."

So by circumventing international law through barely clever loopholes we present ourselves as hypocrites and invite foreign nations to do the same to us when such opportunity comes about (and eventually it will). What are the chances that when we do get into a long real protracted exchange, US POWs will not be classified as enemy combatants and then tortured. Let's see.. ummm zero. These treaties came about because of very harsh torture and treatment used by Germans and Japanese (in the case of the 3rd and 4th, wheras I believe the 1st and 2nd were by Napolean), and for the most part, we conceived of these POW rules (parts 3 and 4) with the English and Soviets, yet now we seek to avert them. I have no idea why you are OK with this? it is an extreme grab of power by an executive branch, without the proper channels or discussion. WHat would be the proper channels? I guess withdraw from the Geneva conventions, and then have congress clarify what types of torture can and cannot be used, who is a POW, and then renegotiate amendments that virtually no other nations except the Russkies and China will sign. So of course that won't happen since Obama isn't as eager to look like a fool to the Europeans (who's opinion you deem completely immatterial, but tis not since they have been in these conundrums for hundreds of years before us)

If you are ok with that, why is not OK for the Police to bust into a US citizen's house who they think may be planning to imminently kill someone (there are plenty) and torture them until they get the info? Murder adverted! Maybe multiple murders and rapes (in this case you would be rejecting prior restraint as well). Maybe you think one law applies above another. But here you are wrong, since the consitution specifically states that treaties have the rule of law. It is this kind of gray give and take that the Bush administration has engaged in which subverts the rule of law. Why all the cover ups, lack of transparency, misclassifying POWs (strange how the war on terror has no POWs isn't it?), new courts when we already have courts, if the goal is to uphold the rule of law?

I mean, unless you are saying f*** it you don't believe in the rule of law and you would rather live in a different kind of state than we live in, say like China. Depending on the circumstances, we apply the law we see fit to deal say with Terrorists. So what is a terrorist then? Maybe we can reclassify all violent criminals as terrorists (their behavior is certainly similar). Or maybe green card holders who are violent criminals. It is a real slippery slope and must be brought to a stop. We have a legal interrogation system, and legal prosecution system that works, and most of these people, after they have been removed form the battlefield a few days should be handled that way.

Anyway, we all know the courts are slow and all of this nonsense will eventually be reversed by the Supreme Court which has reaffirmed the law every time these cases have come up, the last one being
Boumediene v. Bush

Anonymous said...

Wow, Anonymous, you put a lot of effort into avoiding Engram's point. You couldn't do it in fewer sentences?

Engram, I too am glad about a number of Obama's picks. I do wonder though, should I be happy that the president-elect has thrown so many of his close collegues and campaign points under the bus, basically shown that his Hope and Change means return of the Clinton administration, and that his word means absolutely nothing? I mean I am happy that most of the policies/people he has thrown under the bus I detest, but, should I be happy about our president-elect? Are you?

Mark in Portland

Engram said...

Anonymous,

On your first point (an imminent emergency), I don't think you doing anti-torture hysterics full justice by sweeping it away like that. Many have bitterly complained about the waterboarding of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (which is thought to have yielded time-sensitive information about impending terrorist attacks). You appear not to have a problem with that, and neither do I. But many do, and I am speaking to (and about) them. I also would not classify waterboarding as torture because it does not pass my torture test. Most on the left have no such test. They just describe the procedure and have an apoplectic fit in response (as if that establishes it as torture).

Always, the question is where to draw the line. It is not as if detainees come pre-categorized into those who may have time-sensitive information about a terrorist attack and those who don't (and how "time-sensitive" must the information be?). No one condones low-level grunts "being tortured probably primarily for the location of infrastructure." For you to pretend otherwise does not advance the discussion. Instead, it demonizes those with whom you disagree. It's common, but it does not help. Drop the word "torture" and simply address this simple question: how harsh should interrogation techniques be for low-level grunts who might know the location of terrorist infrastructure? To say "don't torture them" is to merely engage in self-aggrandizement (by implying "I, being the especially noble person that I am, stand in opposition to those evil conservative reprobates who favor torture"). We all agree that such detainees should not be tortured (even if some were at Abu Ghraib). We may disagree about where to draw the legal line. The discussion should be all about where to draw the line for low-level grunts and here to draw the line for high-level al Qaeda leaders (and for everyone in between). Most on the left want to the discussion to be about something else altogether. Specifically, they want to simply charge their intellectual opponents with being evil torturers, as if what amounts to "torture" is self evident and so need not be considered in any detail (e.g., no one on the left goes to the effort to stating a principle the defines the harshest technique that should be permitted for various classifications of prisoner). They won't do that because they primarily want to establish themselves as champions of social justice, and the only way to do that is to demonize the opposition.

To just breezily assert that there is "no unlawful combatant status" (and, therefore, that there should never be such a status or even any further discussion about it) is to essentially say "well, reasonable people cannot disagree about that even if we are talking about stateless al Qaeda terrorists, so all those who disagree with me must be abjectly stupid (like George Bush) or wretchedly evil (like Dick Cheney)." To those on the left, it does not matter that the Geneva Convention was obviously designed to protect combatants who go out of their way protect innocent civilians (by wearing uniforms, for example). To them, it now applies even to those who deliberately target innocent civilians. A closely divided US Supreme agreed, so that is the law to be followed now. But that does not make it sensible (or unworthy of further debate).

Finally, you said: "What are the chances that when we do get into a long real protracted exchange, US POWs will not be classified as enemy combatants and then tortured. Let's see.. ummm zero." I completely agree. I'd simply add something you omitted: "If we torture no prisoner, what are the chances that when we do get into a long real protracted exchange with Islamic radicals, US POWs will not be classified as enemy combatants and then tortured. Let's see.. ummm zero." Absolute zero.

Bob said...

We could of course simply apply the Geneva Convention rules as originally utilized. If you abided by the conditions which specified lawful combatant status you were treated as a POW. If you were not a combatant you were either a refugee or displaced civilian. But if you were a combatant who did not meet the conditions for lawful status, then you were afforded no status. And thus hung or shot.

If the aurgument for the US to not use waterboarding because of concerns it may "allow" our opponents to torture our troops then that is a specious aurgument. Our abiding by GC has provided NO protection since WWII and only protected US troops fighting in Europe during WWII.

Freedomnow said...

Engram's critics are full of fear.

Their man Obama is acting more like Engram than Pelosi or Reid.

Obama will not pull out of Iraq and will continue the foreign policy of the Bush Administration.

Thats "Change" you can believe in.

What? said...

FYI- Iraq Body Count is showing November 2008 as the least deadly month in Iraq for civilians since the start of the war and 2008 is going to be the least deadly year for civilians since the start of the war. You may want to include IBC numbers if you do a Iraq Casualties review of 2008.

Freedomnow said...

Happy New Year Engram.

I hope you enjoyed the holiday, if not there is still a couple more days to celebrate!!!

Anonymous said...

You know ,I have some requiem gold,and my friend also has some
requiem lant,do you kouw they have the same meaning,Both of

them can be called
requiem money,I just want to
requiem online gold,because there are many
cheap requiem lant

Anonymous said...

喝花酒
酒店喝酒
暑假打工
寒假打工
酒店小姐
酒店兼職
禮服店
酒店經紀
酒店兼差
酒店
酒店經紀人
酒店現領
酒店經紀爆米花
酒店經紀

酒店打工
酒店上班
假日打工
台北酒店經紀
酒店pt
酒店pt
酒店應酬
粉味
酒店經紀PRETTY GIRL
酒店經濟
酒店經濟
打工兼差

dyangelo said...

hello
i have to tell every body about a great medication by the name of Viagra Online i think is international know at first a was kind of sceptic but once i used it it was great now i will use it for ever .in so good it give me new energy in bed my wife love it use it its the best the best decision :D :) :mrgreen: