May 07, 2009

Can Reasonable People Disagree with You about Gay Marriage?

I guess everything that needs to be said about this has been said already, but I'd just like to add my voice to those who are puzzled by the flap over Miss California's response to a judge's question in the Miss USA pageant. Basically, if you haven't heard, some gay celebrity asked Carrie Prejean about same-sex marriage, and she responded by saying that she believes that marriage should be between a man and a woman. That's it. That's the "controversy."

I do not oppose gay marriage, and I recently voted against a proposition that sought to ban gay marriage in California. I don't oppose it even though I do not resonate to the arguments favored by many on the left, who see it as an issue of "equality" or "civil rights." I don't see it that way at all, and in that respect, I am like a lot of blacks:

In a recent poll, 65 percent of blacks opposed same-sex marriage, although other surveys have shown strong support for laws banning discrimination against gays. What offends most black people is the comparison between the gay-marriage struggle and the black struggle for civil rights.

Like many blacks, I also do not equate these two struggles, but I can see how others might (i.e., I can see how reasonable people would see things differently than I do). Perhaps it is because I do not frame the issue in the way that social progressives do that I am having trouble understanding why the comments made by Carrie Prejean are even slightly controversial, much less hugely controversial. Maybe I have something wrong in my line of thinking about this issue, and if I do, I hope someone can straighten me out. Here is my line of reasoning:

1. a judge (not Carrie Prejean) came up with the question

2. Prejean answered the question honestly (not dishonestly)

3. She gave an answer that corresponds to the views of the majority of people in her home state, to the majority of Americans, and to the majority of blacks. It is also the view held by President Barack Obama and Vice-President Joe Biden (and Hillary Clinton, I believe). John McCain holds that view as well.

All that said, I don't see anything even slightly controversial here. A view that is that widely held cannot be regarded as inherently controversial. If a reporter wants to characterize it as a controversy, shouldn't an explanation be provided for those of us who don't have the liberal reflexes of the mainstream media? I guess not. In response to Prejean's answer, the media has relentlessly portrayed this as a controversy without ever saying why it is a controversy. Now, CNN is excitedly abetting a malicious attempt by some unprincipled purveyors of a web site to attract traffic by "slowly rolling out" racy photos of Prejean. That seems pathetic to me. I realize that to most reporters (most of whom hail from the left), her views on gay marriage are not just wrong but are downright illegitimate (that how it seems to people on the left), but that doesn't mean they should try to delegitimize someone with whom they disagree. Unfortunately, that's what they are doing, and I am guessing that many on the left who favor gay marriage (and who have a strong tendency to demonize their political opponents) are enjoying the spectacle.

In any case, the CNN story has this line:

The 21-year-old Miss USA contestant has been the center of controversy since she declared her opposition to same-sex marriage in a response to a question on the national pageant stage last month.

But what is the controversy, exactly? That's my question. Can anyone help me out here? Perhaps Prejean planted the question in order grandstand about her views on gay marriage. If so, then I'd understand. Or perhaps people believe that, when surprised by the question, Prejean should have lied through her teeth instead of being honest. Is that why this is controversial? I just don't know.

Unless I have my facts wrong (e.g., unless she planted the question), then CNN should have said this:

The 21-year-old Miss USA contestant has been the center of a mainstream media firestorm since she declared her opposition to same-sex marriage in a response to a question on the national pageant stage last month. Unlike most Americans and unlike the president of the United States, reporters generally consider her view to be as illegitimate as the long-discredited view that blacks do not deserve the same rights as whites.

That's what lies at the root of this "controversy," so far as I can tell.

24 comments:

taoist said...

Did you see the latest topless photos of another gay marriage opponent?

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2009/05/gay-marriage-opponent-topless-photos-leaked.html

Anonymous said...

For a quantoid, you do a nice job with rhet crit! Props.

Anonymous said...

Yes, of course reasonable people can disagree about Gay Marriage, just as reasonable people still hold that Blacks and other "minorities" should not intermarry with Whites (White Europeans), just as some "Conservative Christians" believe that Non-White skin color is a punishment from God, just as many of these same folks believe that being Black is the "Mark of Cain." In fact, I've listened to several "Christians" argue that this is clearly spelled out in the Bible… So it must be true, correct?

Of course many of us see these positions as thinly disguised hatred and fear.

No doubt you see "being Gay" as a "Lifestyle "Choice," something we decide to do like selecting a matching tie in the morning... After all, as we all know, no one has ever suffered as Blacks have suffered, no other country ever had slavery, all slaves were shipped to the United States, no Whites were sold as slaves, no Blacks owned slaves, or supported segregation, and of course all sexual minorities who realized they were different at 6 or 7 or 10 were recruited by the mysterious powers of unknown individuals...

Of course, intelligent folks toss all these foolish lies aside and realize that all this recruitment malarkey is as idiotic as the hate filled lies passed on about racial “minorities.”

We sexual minorities need legal protections such as a marriage license or the equivalent in nationally recognized “Civil Unions” just as others who are the subjects of hatred and fear do...

I'm sorry if this offends some Blacks and other "real" minorities. Everyone needs to realize that recruitment and other foolish notions are just that. After all, since naked women are used to sell everything from cars to toaster ovens, how would you explain Gay men? Who is trying to recruit whom?

Gregory Hubbard
Sanford, Maine

Anonymous said...

I oppose gay marriage. It's non-sense, it's very wrong. This marriage will never be recognized by majority of the population in America and throughout the world, period. Who among these gays and lesbians can reverse the law of nature. You go against the law of nature, you'll surely be dead. Surely you heard about Sodom and Gomorrah it vanished like a soap bubble when immorality became sore to the eyes of the Creator. Or perhaps you'll deny this because you're enjoying the flesh of it. Time is getting short, it might be too late for you guys to go straight.

Moonbeam said...

You're the person who has said it best: this is simply not a controversy. Thank you for pointing out that both Barack Obama and John McCain said the same thing during their Presidential debate.

As for stripping her crown, we don't have all the facts. However, it appears while a naive teenager, she posed scantily clad in an effort to obtain a lingerie modeling job, not to release and sell those photos to a skin mag. Rather, she sought to model in a catalog that is sent through the U.S. mails, free, to millions of U.S. homes. The wording in the pageant contract will be crucial here. "Semi-nude" could refer to selling photos for commercial gain to semi or pornographic publications, and not lingerie modeling "audition" types of photos. Lawyers need to check the wording of the pageant contract (which I'm sure is being done) and also the contract she signed with the photographer who took the photos when she was 17. She was not even of legal age to sign a contract. Who signed it, and how did it say the photos could be used? My only problem with her is that, while she sounds like a sweet person, she often comes across as neither bright nor articulate. This is certainly being used against her -- nobody would dare attack Hillary Clinton for saying the same thing, at least not in such a manner as has happened here.

Anonymous said...

After just being introduced to this story today I cannot believe the lengths that some are going to discredit her. To what end do they serve by doing this? It was a simple opinionated response to an obviously packed question that I would even go so far as to ask if it should have been a question for the pageant anyway. Seriously? People take the pageant (and it's contestants) this seriously?!

Noemi said...

If you have not participated in the world of pageants, you might not understand why this answer was bad. Pageant girls represent the companies that sponsor the pageant, so by rule they cannot take sides on political issues, and if they do, it must be minimal and always have a positive feel-good spin to it.

Most Americans ARE against gay marriage, but Miss USA is supposed to be all-inclusive and NEVER offend anyone. If you have to say "no offense" in your answer, you messed up.

This is why the answer was a big deal, not because of the Judge or because of her honest opinion. The sponsors were furious. Take for example the hotel the event took place, they had to release around 10 press statements that their hotel did not discriminate based on sexual orientation.

Keep in mind that she still has official sponsors even though she is ignoring all that they are asking of her. She is appearing on TV and doing things for political organizations while her sponsors are completely screwed.

Anonymous said...

Noemi: then I would argue that the question should never have been asked in the first place. I don't think someone should have to grit their teeth and lie to a national audience in order to win a pageant. Obviously there are some subtleties to this that I am missing but it seems like you are pigeon holing contestants by asking the question if there is a chance that their response is not something that the event will want to hear.

Engram said...

Noemi,

Thanks for the interesting reply. If it's true that answers should not offend ANYBODY, then should a judge be asking whether or not a contestant supports gay marriage? That's a very emotionally charged issue for people, and it generally has a "yes" or "no" answer. The only way not to offend anyone is to not tell the truth. Then again, I guess the perfect answer might have been this: "That's a very tough question, with reasonable arguments on both sides, but I am inspired by and take my guidance from President Barack Obama on this one. Thank you."

Come to think of it, that's what she should have said. I wonder if CNN would be reporting that answer as "controversial."

Anonymous said...

I think that it is ridiculous and even pathetic that Americans cannot express their true opinions about certain matters without being persecuted. Are we not a nation where we have Freedom of Speech? Don't Americans boast about the liberty to have personal opinions and to be able to speak their minds without being reprimanded. Isn't that the foundation of which our Founding Fathers worked so hard for?

Miss California spoke her mind about what she believes (and most Americans believe) and now the media is finding ways to hurt her reputation???? This reflects inescrupulous and immaturity of certain groups of people in the U.S.

I applaude Miss California for being brave enough, kind enough and respectful enough to answer a question truthfully, with dignity and grace.

I hope more people can learn from her to stand their ground even when it means losing popularity.

Anonymous

Noemi said...

Engram,

I think if she said "That's a very tough question, with reasonable arguments on both sides, but I am inspired by and take my guidance from President Barack Obama on this one. Thank you."

It would not be as controversial, at least to the world of pageantry.

Main errors I saw was using the term "opposite marriage" and saying that in the US we get to choose, when in reality there is no choice for some states.

The best answer (while still being honest) would have gone something like "I think it's an important issue and all states should vote so that the people can be heard. Democracy is what makes our country great. My state voted on this very important issue and chose traditional marriage, which I think is great that the people's voice was heard. Thank you."

The whole point of controversial questions is for the girls to show how they can answer charged questions with grace and poise.

I know the stereotype is that pageant girls are brainless, but at the higher levels they have to think on their feet and fill their role perfectly, that means not sounding stupid and not offending anyone.

Don't get me wrong, I am not for political correctness in all other aspects of life, but that is what pageantry is about.

Engram said...

Noemi,

Thank you again for a thoughtful and interesting response.

I agree that the answer you suggest would have been better. However, I don't agree that her lack of tact in answering the question accounts for the media "controversy." Imagine she had answered the question in the following equally tactless way (equally tactless but in the other direction): "For me, this is civil rights issue. No offense, but I believe that all people are created equal and that equal rights are for all, so I believe that people should be allowed to get married whether they are the same sex or opposite sex. After all, that's freedom, that's equality, and that's America. Thank you."

Don't you think that there would be no controversy at all had she answered this way? That the media would be hailing her courageous answer instead of targeting her like a heat-seeking missile? Or do you think that CNN would be covering this "controversy" as well and helping right wingers to destroy her reputation by digging up racy pictures?

Anonymous said...

This is all really very funny.

You Bible thumpers out there need to reread the “Good Book.” If you believe the Bible is the absolute word of God, you can’t waltz through it picking what you like and ignoring the rest. Wear fabrics of mixed fibers, eat Shrimp Cocktail or Clams Casino? Lobster? Eat pork or wear pig leather? Then you’re in violation of Leviticus. Spend Sundays watching sports? You’re not observing the Sabbath as the Bible INSISTS YOU MUST. You’re gonna burn in Hell. And the longest portion of Leviticus is devoted to the buying and selling slaves. Now there’s a politically correct statement!

Perhaps you prefer to discuss the incestuous and abusive sexual relationships clearly outlined in the Bible? Many of these relationships would land their participants in jail today. And Conservative Christians would lead the charge – just check out what ministers have said about today’s headlines. Lot and his daughters? They’d just left Zoar, so how could his daughters believe they were the only humans left and incest with their father was the only way to save humankind?

And get over the myth that MOST AMERICANS…blah, blah, blah! The numbers of Americans who oppose Legal Recognition of Gay Relationships is now a minority. So keep playing with words if that makes you feel better.

And opposing nature? You are obviously not a naturalist, or you’d know that this statement isn’t even marginally accurate.

Then there are all the implied statements of the LIBERAL MEDIA attacking this poor twit. No one on the conservative side ever complained when the when the so-called Liberal Media jumped into the Clinton’s bedroom. Didn’t matter that many republican presidents have had affairs.

And who demanded that the Miss California crew give her a boob job? Not the so-called Liberal Media. She’s the one who decided to publicly mount a campaign based on her vision of morality while having breast augmentation and scanty photos taken. And these were not innocent photos. Have any of you looked at Victoria’s Secret Catalogues? These aren’t the sort of thing you take to Grammar School or Bible Study. She knew exactly what she was doing: Soft Porn to sell lingerie by selling images of her virtually naked body.

What’s even better is the incident by incident University analysis that documented the CONSERVATIVE BIAS of the media. Republicans were largely filmed from below, always a position of power, while Democrats were largely filmed at eye level or from above, making them look small and weakening them. Worse, they were often filmed with voice-overs from reporters, leaving the Democrats looking like fish gulping air – which is the Media Term for it. But of course if you explode the myth of Liberal Bias then you can’t be the poor, put-upon and misrepresented Conservatives. You’d have to face the fact that most of us don’t like you anymore.

Poor Babies.

Gregory Hubbard
Sanford Maine

bagoh20 said...

Conservative Bias? You don't really believe that. I know a guy who still believes the earth is flat, he just likes to think it. He doesn't care about facts ether.

As in the responses here, most see no controversy other than the artificial one created by journalists who have become the bottom feeders of our society. Seriously, what other profession is so poorly practiced? Also as here, there are a few that immediately insult the opposition (although I suspect the religious one to be a fake).

So to your question: Yes, reasonable people can and do disagree reasonably. Unfortunately, anger is so much spicier. Personally I'm getting heartburn from our public discord. I could go for some bland, but satisfying meat and potatoes. Which I expect Engram also craves.

Anonymous said...

Bagoh20, I always seem to follow your excellent posts. You beat me to the punch.

I'd like to add a couple of conjectures on why the msm is defending the topless beauty queen and attacking the opponent of gay marriage. Oops, maybe it's the other way around -- I was thinking of Obama's beefcake photos from the beach...it's all so confusing these days.

Anyway, in addition to partisan politics, i.e., Obama is our guy, so we overlook disagreements; or we know that he's got his heart in the right place on gay marriage; or we understand that he's dissimulating -- er, finessing & temporizing -- the issue because the great American Booboisie (in Mencken's words) isn't ready for it), I think that there are two other motives:

1) Scapegoating
2) Class snobbery, or what I call the "anti-anti" phenomenon.

We saw the "anti-anti" impulse all the time during the cold war. How gauche to associate with those benighted anti-communists -- an "evil empire"? How simplistic. What we need is "nuance". It's not that I'm not against communism per se, you see, although it was really Stalin who went off the tracks, and besides, isn't unfettered capitalism more exploitative than Marxism, which despite its improper implementation, is really for social justice -- why, just look at Cuba's free health care system, which would be even better if the U.S. would have lifted its irrational sanction years ago...

...you get the idea, whatever the issue. It's easy to get lost in all the contortions and lose sight of the issue.

Style over substance. t's less about the merits of each individual case than marking off social boundaries (we enlightened few vs. the benighted them). Perhaps it's fed by the narcissism of small differences.

As I said, conjecture on may part. I don't know how you would empirically test the "anti-anti" thesis.

gpc31

Anonymous said...

A quick P.S. to my previous post.

When I say the "narcissism of small differences" generating the controversy, I mean something like the following process:

1) Of course, everyone agrees that free speech is good. [This is the "small difference."]

2) However, I disagree with what person X has to say about issue Y, and I really don't like X, and I don't want to be associated with X. [This is the "narcissism".]

3) Therefore, since I don't want to be implicated in any way with X, I will gin up some rationalization about why X is not only wrong but illegitimate. [The "anti-anti" conclusion.]

A true anti-anti can even basically agree with his opponent on the broad substance of an issue -- say, anti-terrorism -- yet pick out a subcomponent, e.g. waterboarding, in order to mark his vehement disagreement with the other party.

The anti-anti is consistent with respect to the person (that he dislikes), not the issue. Social cohesion rather than intellectual consistency. Charges of hypocrisy or contradiction won't matter to him or stick because the right association trumps all else.

gpc31

Anonymous said...

Gregory Hubbard,
I suspect that if the question asked was on 'civil union' or the 'legal equivalent of marriage,' the answer might have been less stark. If it weren't, more people would agree with you that it showed discrimination.

However, insisting on changing/broadening the definition of a word which has always had such a specific and fundamental meaning to people is a bit hard to see as the expression of a fundamental and necessary right. Couldn't there be a new word which everyone would recognize, maybe 'Garriage?'

People would equally dislike having words like 'bride' and 'groom', 'husband' and 'wife,' 'father' and 'mother,' lose their traditional meaning and emotionally-linked image content and become, or be replaced by, more ambiguous terms -- it's in our language, our literature, our thinking. How can it be an obvious right to suddenly redifine it? --- and why not go about things a step at a time so people develop new terms on their own and become used to new ideas -- language is supposed to develop from bottom-up consensus on the use and meaning of some symbol)

brendan said...

Wow, thanks for reminding me why I don't watch cable news...

I support civil rights for gays, but I don't think that "The War for Gay Marriage" approach is winning over the hearts and minds of Americans. Go figure.

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